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 Squat Cleans or Power Cleans

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rlivingstone



Posts : 20
Join date : 2008-07-16

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PostSubject: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 17, 2008 8:00 am

What are your thoughts on these two lifts? What would be your choice and why? I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas.


Rob Livingstone MS, CSCS, SCCC
Head Strength and Conditioning Coach
Norcross High School Football
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 17, 2008 9:12 am

I prefer the Full Clean for a few reasons.
1. You get to front squat more often. That can't be bad.
2. In the long run, you get to pull more weight more often.
3. You get to practice absorbing loads and then reversing the motion which often occurs in sports.
4. You get to decelerate the weight which you can't do as well with the Power Clean.
5. You can't catch the bar in a really wide stance which often happens with kids when the weight gets heavier and heavier. I don't believe you will get as much transfer if you catch it in that wide position.

The negatives is that it is a little harder to teach. I would somewhat agree. However if you start out teaching the full clean and catch then it is not a problem. I have 9th graders(maybe 10-15 in all) who have never lifted before performing a full clean with about 99% accuracy after only 5 weeks of practice. I thought it would be much harder but its not. I have all my athletes perform the full clean. The trouble I have is with the older kids because their nervous system is set on doing it one way and changing causes them to lift less temporarily. That is not acceptable in their eyes. They don't see the big picture. When those 9th graders are out lifting them in a year, maybe they will change their ways. It kind of falls into the old saying about teaching an old dog new tricks. I would say that 75% of the lifters in my classes have acceptable form with the full clean. The others are the older kids who won't change and the non-athletes who lack the strength and flexibility to even perform a good hang clean with an unloaded bar.
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rlivingstone



Posts : 20
Join date : 2008-07-16

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 17, 2008 11:52 am

Jay,

I would say the one thing I see being a problem is full hip extension. Some kids and coaches get so involved with the low quick catch that they forget to emphasize the dynamic hyperextension. The main issue with the hyperextension of the hips is that athletes will have to decelerate and transfer into flexion quicker.

You made a great point about eccentric loading and deceleration. Acceleration starts with the ability to decelerate properly. Thus the reason why I spend so much time on it during the offseason.

Believe me, I love squat cleans and wouldn't do it any other way. The aforementioned is the one issue I see with them.


Rob Livingstone MS, CSCS, SCCC
Head Strength and Conditioning Coach
Norcross High School
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 17, 2008 1:15 pm

You are absolutely correct. I have three or four kids who get in a hurry to get under the bar and don't finish their pull. I am constantly yelling "Finish your pull" while they are lifting. I see it more with light weights and with heavy weights. With light weights they are being lazy and with heavy weights they just get into a hurry.
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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 17, 2008 7:38 pm

I am glad I am not the only one dealing with these issues. With my kids, its like we do one or the other, not both. But we have our moments when it looks pretty, kind of like a sweet reach block my right tackle executed today at practice. Man it gives me goose bumps to think about it. That is when I say to myself, "this is why I do this".
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18, 2008 9:21 am

Clay I know what you mean. I have a baseball player that does almost every lift perfect. Every time he lifts, I say outloud,"Why can't everybody do that?"

One thing that helped me with the full clean is something I learned from C.J. He said to make them squat it every time anyway. Eventually it becomes second nature. Its also a whole lot easier to start with a clean slate than it is to correct old bad habits.
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mitchell



Posts : 3
Join date : 2008-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm

I definitely prefer to teach the squat clean for the reasons previously stated, but mostly in that it allows more weight to be used. I do all workouts by percentages, so a squat clean will lead to bigger maxes, which means bigger workouts!

Once my kids are good at catching low I teach them to let the weight determine how high to catch it in workouts. If they can catch 90% of their squat clean max in the power position, then that is good progress. I actually had one kid that I made catch in the power position b/c he was getting under the bar so quick that he almost didn't even get it to his hips. ( and he was working with 315 so let's just say he has a great front squat to boot)
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 19, 2008 8:58 am

I have a kid new to cleans who was doing the same thing. He never finishes his pulls and is in a big hurry to get under the bar.
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rlivingstone



Posts : 20
Join date : 2008-07-16

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 19, 2008 3:47 pm

One thing I have been doing lately to make sure kids clear their hips is to make sure the bar hits high on the thigh on their pull. I tell them to drive their "pecker through the bar". It has become a great coaching cue for my classroom. What are your thoughts on this method?


Rob Livingstone MS, CSCS, SCCC
Head Strength and Conditioning Coach
Norcross High School Football
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 23, 2008 9:50 am

I read a something the other day by Mark Rippetoe that said to emphasize the stomp to make sure they are getting full extension. I have seen kids stomp though and never extend their knees.
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rlivingstone



Posts : 20
Join date : 2008-07-16

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 23, 2008 11:22 am

I agree Jay. I don't teach with the stomp. I feel as thought the kids start to put too much emphasis on it and it takes away from full extension. I have read articles that anecdotally support the stomp due to it's eccentric load. But again, show me some supporting research and I will actually read the whole article.


Rob Livingstone MS, CSCS, SCCC
Head Strength and Conditioning Coach
Norcross High School Football
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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 23, 2008 1:28 pm

Coach Livingstone, thought this might interest you. I found this a couple of years ago. I apologize though, I dont remember where or who the author was.

Something that I strongly suggest you pass on to him, however, is that slamming the feet down is a royal waste of movement and energy.

Somehow, strength coaches seem to have popularized this flawed tactic. The athletes are told that slamming the feet down is some sort of correlary to power production.

Here's what's actually happening:
The lifter is prematurely flexing the hip (in order to raise the feet off the ground only to send them back into the earth). This premature hip flexion truncates the potential to lengthen the pull.

*A note to coaches, the lifter is in a much better position to generate force with their feet on the floor.

The longer the pull (greater the amplitdue of hip/back extension) the more force that is generated into the floor. Consequently the higher the barbell is lifted from the floor, therefore, the more room the lifter has to get under it.
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rlivingstone



Posts : 20
Join date : 2008-07-16

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 23, 2008 3:14 pm

Thanks Clay for the supporting article.
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mitchell



Posts : 3
Join date : 2008-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 23, 2008 10:57 pm

I have found that the "stomp" is really just a by product of widening of the feet. We teach the starting position with the feet narrow at hip width, and the catch with the feet at shoulder width. This allows the lifter to elevate the bar higher on extension, and pull under the bar while widening feet. I first learned this from Burgener, and then was reinforced by Pendlay. I think many confuse the stomp with the popping of the feet. I have yet to see a great lifter that doesn't pop the feet.

I have personally witnessed most kids that won't fully extend need more weight on the bar. I know that sounds like heresy when there is a form issue, but sometimes the best way to correct form is to put a weight on that requires more technique to complete the lift. We will also cycle in clean shrugs from the squat and hang positions to help get full extension.
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Squat Cleans or Power Cleans   Squat Cleans or Power Cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 24, 2008 10:15 am

Mitchell you are right about the weight issue. Arms bend, full extensions doesn't occur, the bar swings out, etc. when the weight is a joke. I see it when we do our barbell only warmup and technique sessions. When the weight gets heavy, they have to lift correctly or the bar wont move.
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