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 Hang cleans vs cleans

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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

Hang cleans vs cleans Empty
PostSubject: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 03, 2008 10:17 am

Just from visual observation, no hard data mind you, most of my kids seem to be able to hang as much or close to what they clean. Any thoughts? I think I am going to try to let mine max out on both over the next two and half weeks and I will let you guys know the results
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 04, 2008 3:27 pm

I have always been told that you hang clean more than you can power clean. I doubt that you would be able to hang clean more than you can full clean. The explanation was that because you get some stretch reflex before you attempt the pull. This adds to the amount of weight you can lift.
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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 05, 2008 12:47 pm

I had heard that before as well. I dont think that applies with most of my kids. We are definitely improving on cleans. I have a few kids who can catch big weight in a full squat, but most of mine can still power clean more than they can full clean because they cannot stand up with the weight. We are going to have to do more heavy(relative to what we have been doing) overhead and front squats. Some are still struggling with flexibility issues with these two lifts as well. I let them go heavy in 1st on hang cleans today and a couple of my 300 lb power cleaners were able to hang between 275 and 285.
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 08, 2008 12:07 pm

ClayNC wrote:
I had heard that before as well. I dont think that applies with most of my kids. We are definitely improving on cleans. I have a few kids who can catch big weight in a full squat, but most of mine can still power clean more than they can full clean because they cannot stand up with the weight. We are going to have to do more heavy(relative to what we have been doing) overhead and front squats. Some are still struggling with flexibility issues with these two lifts as well. I let them go heavy in 1st on hang cleans today and a couple of my 300 lb power cleaners were able to hang between 275 and 285.

We don't hang clean as much as we should. We did hang snatches on Friday and it was definitely easier for our kids to hang snatch than full snatch.

What weights are yall moving on snatches?
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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 08, 2008 6:13 pm

Most kids are working with something between 40 and 65 kilos. I have had 4 or 5 pull up to 85 kilos and 1 or 2 kids 100 kilos from the floor. I have been conservative to say the least with the snatches.
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GqArtguy



Posts : 6
Join date : 2009-03-08

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 08, 2009 4:11 pm

I disagree that you should hang clean more than you full clean. The reason is that when starting from the floor, you are generating momentum to place the bar in the power position. If your positions are the same in the hang and floor clean, then the floor clean should be stronger via leg drive. In a true hang clean, there shouldnt be a significant stretch reflex: the lifter should place the bar in the hang, assure his/position, then go. If you try to rely on the stretch reflex, you may rush the pull or throw off your alignment.

That said, theres a few reasons why someone might hang clean more than full clean in real life:

1) Lifter is weak off the floor

2) Lifter cannot pull correctly off the floor (for whatever reason) so the bar path is compromised

Given these reasons, a lifter can place the bar in position slowly and make sure its there from the hang rather than hope you reach it from the floor.
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 11, 2009 8:50 am

Maybe we see it because the technique of our lifters is faulty when performing the full lifts. I know the lifters are more likely to use straps when performing hang cleans as well.

Jim Wendler once said that some people hang clean more than clean if that adds any weight to the arguement.
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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 11, 2009 9:46 am

Would the incorporation of a counter movement and thus the stretch reflex not be beneficial for athletes? Much of what they do on the field/ court involves a counter movement. I ask this because lately I have been having this internal debate about whether or not my priority is (I know what it should be) training athletes or training the specific lifts.
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GqArtguy



Posts : 6
Join date : 2009-03-08

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 2:40 am

coachfloyd wrote:
Maybe we see it because the technique of our lifters is faulty when performing the full lifts. I know the lifters are more likely to use straps when performing hang cleans as well.

Jim Wendler once said that some people hang clean more than clean if that adds any weight to the arguement.

True, and if thats happening (faulty form) then its up to the coach to make a decision about that.

Quote :
Would the incorporation of a counter movement and thus the stretch reflex not be beneficial for athletes? Much of what they do on the field/ court involves a counter movement. I ask this because lately I have been having this internal debate about whether or not my priority is (I know what it should be) training athletes or training the specific lifts.

In my opinon, you have to consider what a clean can do for you and also decide what you want out it. There are better ways of simulatiing or using counter movement that are sports specific than doing a faulty clean.
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 8:40 am

The problem we run into GQ is that we have many, many students lifting at the same time. Its like running around putting out little fires. We do not perform the hang clean very often except as part of our technique sessions. I really think we could get away with just performing the various pulls but that wont fly with the kids. They love to clean. I have about 4 kids out of 200 that look really really good. About 50% of the rest are acceptable. The next 25% always catch high with elbows down and will not change. The last few are guys that really have no business being in weight training or do not want to be in weight training.
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ClayCHS

ClayCHS

Posts : 186
Join date : 2008-07-04

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 13, 2009 9:25 pm

Good point Jay about the numbers we are dealing with, I have as many as 90 at a time in my weight room. Good point GQ about what we want out of doing cleans. Since I am taining athletes, not Olympic lifters, I am using it to develop explosion in my athletes. I do not use them specifically because of the counter movement/ stretch reflex, that was just an observation. We use different jumps/ plyos, bag/ sled drills as well as med ball work for that specific purpose. Like the Thinker said, if O lifts were the be all end all, then NFL scouts would go to the olympic training center to find players. For years I taught only the power clean. My thought process was that the more weight they can pull up in front of their face, the better. Only after going through the club coaching certification program did I see the benefits of the clean and jerk and snatch. Although I am much more proficient and efficient at coaching these lifts now, I still have a long ways to go and I still struggle with the time required to teach them properly. I have many other means of training that I feel are just as impprtant for my kids and there is only so much time in a class period.
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coachfloyd



Posts : 185
Join date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 16, 2009 12:45 pm

Clay is right. You really have to be choosy about what you want to teach and have them learn. If we can get a clean 75% right, then that is probably enough for our purpose. Now thats not to say Im not harping on the other 25% we do wrong. But 75%(and thats an arbitrary number) is something I can live with.
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GqArtguy



Posts : 6
Join date : 2009-03-08

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PostSubject: Re: Hang cleans vs cleans   Hang cleans vs cleans I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 22, 2009 1:35 pm

coachfloyd wrote:
The problem we run into GQ is that we have many, many students lifting at the same time. Its like running around putting out little fires. We do not perform the hang clean very often except as part of our technique sessions. I really think we could get away with just performing the various pulls but that wont fly with the kids. They love to clean. I have about 4 kids out of 200 that look really really good. About 50% of the rest are acceptable. The next 25% always catch high with elbows down and will not change. The last few are guys that really have no business being in weight training or do not want to be in weight training.

I understand. The way I see it as a coach is that you teach the lifters why and how they do things and try to establish some self-coaching. For example, take the really good lifters and send them to work with the decent lifters, while you spend more time with the poorer lifters. Thats just one way to do things. The more you can teach athletes to train themselves, making yourself redundant, the more effectively it is to run things. I cant remember if it was Mike Boyle, but he used the same justification (either excluding movements or accepting risky form) towards the squat and DL.

Personally, the most useful portion of the lift for most athletic endeavors is the extension and the reversal of motion to catch. I like to use boxes to clean from so that kids arent taxing their backs and forced to go on their toes as much. They just pop up and drop. Once they are proficient at box work from various heights, we could go to the hang. This is all assuming that they can front squat well.

Additionally, I teach the deadlift clean style so that they use their more and they trace out the bar path needed for a clean. In some sessions, they have an accentuated eccentric to retrace the path on the way down. This will ingrain a motor patten that they can apply towards a clean.

I think these are things that can help bring your numbers up or at least bring up the avg technique of your athletes.
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